Saving Lives: Including People with Disabilities in Emergency Planning. Presenter: Pat Pound. >> RACHEL: Good afternoon everybody. And welcome to today's webcast, where we will be discussing Saving Lives: Including People with Disabilities in Emergency Planning. My name is Rachel Kosoy. I'm with the Disability Law Resource Project at ILRU, your sponsor for today's event. I will be moderating the webcast and for the most part will be voicing your questions to the presenter. Now before we get started I wanted to just say something about sending in questions. I know that we have a big audience listening in today, and we really would like to be able to get to as many questions as possible. So please, if you have questions now that you know you want to ask, please go ahead and send them in. And then of course throughout the webcast as issues come up, please continue to submit your questions. And the way you can do that is if you look at the bottom of your RealOne Player screen, there should be a button you can click on to submit a question. Additionally, you could just address something to webcast@ilru.org. And as our presenter pauses to take questions, I'll go ahead and address those to her. If anybody has technical difficulties today, please give us a call at (713)520-0232. Okay, today's topic is saving lives: Including people with disabilities in emergency planning. That is actually the title of a report by the National Council on Disability or NCD. I think we're going to have a number of initials today so we'll try to make sure we're clear about all of them so everyone can keep up. NCD, the National Council on Disability, has a congressional mandate to gather information on the development and the implementation of federal laws, policies, programs and initiatives that affect people with disabilities. And certainly as homeland security has become a very significant issue, NCD committed to evaluate the development of the federal government's work in that area. Now because the decisions that the federal government make during an emergency, they're likely to be established in the early days of a situation and difficult to change a long the way, NCD has developed this report to help this federal government be proactive, and the report offers advice to help the federal government establish policies and practices and just set up infrastructure that would really incorporate access to technology, physical plants, programs and communications and it also would address procurement and emergency programs and services. So we have a terrific presenter with us today to tell us more about this. Our presenter is Pat Pound. She is a member of the National Council on Disability. In addition, she is Executive Director of the Texas Governor's Committee on People with Disabilities, which she's been doing since 1997, and she actually has been with the office even longer working as a policy analyst. Ms. Pound has had a number of positions, including director of the Criss Cole Rehabilitation Center, the director of the Commission for the Blind, and director of the Austin Resource Center for Independent Living. Additionally, she was the founding president of the Coalition of Texans with Disabilities, and if you haven't noticed, Texas is a theme that runs through here. So Pat is with us. She's a native Texan and works hard for the rights of Texans with disabilities and with NCD for Americans with disabilities as a whole. And so, Pat, I'd like to go ahead and turn it over to you now. >> PAT: Thank you. I'm real excited to be here and it's a topic that is important to me and I'm sure is important to many of us, and I'm real excited about the opportunities that this report lays out, too. In reflecting back, the council beginning in 2003 as we observed the activities of the federal government relating to homeland security, emergency management, a lot of the new things that were being done, we decided that we should fairly early on evaluate this kind of area in relation to the participation of people with disabilities. And of course all of us since the events of 9/11 and then with some of the more recent things that have happened in our country, preparedness has become -- to be a much more common thing for us as individuals, employers, business owners, teachers, et cetera, to all think about. The hurricanes in the east, the mudslides and the fires in the west, the snipers in Ohio and in the D. C. area, all of those just kind of help keep us reminded that there is a lot of things that need to be done, and I guess the thing that I'm very most excited about in this report is that there really is something everybody can do because we as individuals can certainly do things that we haven't done, me included, and so I think there is -- it's an exciting report because a lot of times you read something and you realize that as we're supposed to, we're making recommendations to the president and Congress and it isn't always true that there are things you can take away and do today, tomorrow in our own home, at your own school and your own workplace. So I guess what I might do is describe a little bit about some of the things that the NCD report covers and then maybe stop for some questions. The first part of the report talks about what have been the experiences of people with disabilities. In doing the research, we covered the period from September 2003 to December 2004, and we did a literature review and we interviewed a lot of people, including a lot of people with disabilities and we chronicled what we learned in that experience. Then we also looked at what are the gaps? What are the barriers? What's happening, you know, given this experience? So we've chronicled those and then we look at how have we been able to improve access? What have been some of the positive things we've done? We looked at how can we more effectively incorporate community-based organizations in this whole area? And what are some of the promising practices? And then we really looked at the aspect that as a nation we're just now beginning to build a stronger infrastructure on this subject and how could we incorporate people with disabilities into this infrastructure? And then we chronicled some of the recommendations that NCD is making in the report. So, you know, I was particularly excited -- in fact I of course had reviewed this file as a member of NCD before it was published and I wanted to use it so badly, I had to hide the file from myself because I was afraid I would send it to somebody before it was actually released. So I'm relieved now that I can share the file and very honored today to get to present it on this telecast. >> RACHEL: Thank you. >> PAT: Maybe this would be a good point to stop and take some questions. >> RACHEL: I think most of the questions I have at this point are somewhat detailed. So -- or are probably things to give you at the end. >> PAT: I can continue. >> RACHEL: Let me let you go ahead a little more. >> PAT: As I read the report I also started personally thinking, okay, I've had a plan for myself and my family. However, I don't have a plan that relates to my neighbors. I don't have a plan that -- where I know about the emergency procedures anywhere else except my workplace. I go -- I frequently go to a particular theatre. I don't know where the exits are there, restaurants, malls, I don't know what the actual policies of the transportation system that I ride are. So those are all things that I could do that would improve my own experience if there were an emergency. Of course the challenge with an emergency is they all differ, and so, you know, you can gear up in one particular way and learn lots of things and then of course it may present itself totally differently. I know we are familiar with someone who encountered a situation in which 9-1-1 did not work. I think all of us have assumed in emergencies that 9-1-1 will work. So it certainly presents a different scenario if that kind of thing is not true. So it's an area that is very critical that we devote a lot of planning to and it's an area that is very important that we all continue to participate with our city, local and national efforts so that we can continually incorporate disability issues. And of course staff changes in all these areas, so you know, just because we've done it once -- I participate back in the '80's I believe it was in writing Austin's plan, but those are things that of course one needs to continue throughout. I'm not going to summarize, one of the things that we saw as NCD is that people with disabilities certainly encounter barriers as we are involved in emergencies. Those barriers can be physical plants, communication barriers, program access, access to things such as shelters, recovery centers, first aid stations, mass feeding areas, portable pay phones, portable rest rooms, temporary housing, all of those kind of things are issues. And then sometimes it's a program access. Can I bring my guide dog here? Maybe you get labeled as medical and so they try to send you to a medical facility just because you have a disability rather than allowing you in a shelter. Those kind of things have happened. Frequently, the information that people with disabilities get is inaccurate -- inaccessible, either in terms of the planning information of how to plan for an emergency or in terms of the notification that a hurricane is coming and you need to either shelter in place or evacuate. So I guess if it's a hurricane you would always evacuate, but anyway, another thing we thought was very true is that these barriers are not new. These have been around awhile, but as a country we have not done well at applying lessons learned from one disaster to the next disaster, either across federal agencies, across levels of got or across different organizations like organizations of people with disabilities. So we haven't applied the things that we've learned in our experiences to making things better, and we could greatly improve in that and I think the efforts that the federal government is undertaking to create better coordination will inherently assist people with disabilities. And I have talked some about planning, but that's kind of one of the other areas that people with disabilities are inadequately involved in planning efforts in relation to all of these areas on all the levels of government -- the state, city, county, local. And all of those things are opportunities for all of us and certainly it's an area that can use a great deal of effort. And it's an ongoing kind of effort. I know in work here in Texas, we have recently begun to increase work with some of our state partners and we have a greater interest in including real people with disabilities in drills. I think of anyone thing I can think of that will probably create the most change because you really get to experience what actually happens. In disaster preparedness systems, often are designed for people who can walk, run, see, hear, drive, okay? Well, inherently, anyone who has difficulties doing these, whether it's because of a disability or for whatever reason, maybe because of a temporary illness or whatever, may not be well served by such systems. So any improvement that people with disabilities make will improve anyone that finds doing these activities challenging. Access to public warning systems and materials related to emergencies, I know that people who are deaf and people who are blind have inherent challenges in getting information about emergencies in as full a fashion as people without these disabilities. I know that for many people who are deaf, television stations -- even if they do have captioning on the newscasts, frequently don't caption the entire amount of the information leaving people who are deaf without some of the information necessary. I know we had a situation in San Antonio, Texas where the drinking water was unfit to drink in a particular zip code. Well, the television station was captioning the newscast, so you would think, oh, good, that's great. Now we know deaf people got that information. No, that's not what happened. The station -- and this frequently happens -- captions what the news personnel are saying because they are using the script of the news personnel to do the captioning, therefore, if the information comes out of the mouth of someone they interviewed, it's not in the captions. So it's a tricky thing, and we are -- NCD is very happy that the FCC has recently levied some fines against broadcasters who inadequately caption emergency information. So I think once that's done and broadcasters start realizing there is a penalty to pay, that situation can be remedied because current law does require broadcasters to make that information accessible to people who are deaf. Some of the recommendations of the NCD report -- one is that the Department of Homeland Security create an advisory body of individuals with disabilities. This would be different from the interagency coordinating council that President Bush set up last year. We are eager to see that council's report which is due in July of this year, but we think the Department of Homeland Security needs an ongoing body of its own to height en the visibility of this issue and to provide the needed advice to that department. We also believe that the DHS should integrate information about people with disabilities into all the emergency management materials produced by the department. So that like I recently saw a piece done by the NOAA weather radio promoting some of the aspects that were new about the radio systems and the products and they were promoting it for everyone, but they also included how this radio can be useful to individuals who are deaf. Well, you know, radio and deaf are not words that you usually use in the same sentence. So of course they had to explain and how they explained it was that frequently deaf people don't have their televisions on all the time like a lot of us do, and so they're not alerted to the fact -- with the beep beep beep, of course, that there is a tornado coming and so this radio can be set up to Flash a light or can be plugged in to other devices that would be a better warning system for individuals who are deaf and then of course they can't hear what the radio is saying, but at least that way they know to go turn on their T. V. It's really more of a prompt to go turn on your T. V. and hope that your broadcaster has adequately captioned the information or look at your E-mail and see what the E-mail alert system tells you is happening in your area and what you should do. Thirdly, the Department of Homeland Security -- let's see, I'm reading the same one so let me skip to another one. The FCC should ensure that broadcasters correctly caption their information. I've mentioned that, and that's obviously a very important thing that needs to happen. >> RACHEL: You know, Pat, we have a question about the FCC. And wanting to know if the FCC could actually be more proactive instead of simply being reactive? It is good that now the FCC has imposed some fines, but it does seem like they're primarily reactive even though they know that there is really, you know, general noncompliance. >> PAT: I do know that they had sent out a reminder to broadcasters prior to doing the fines. So I would consider that to be a proactive step. Obviously there is always more work that can be done in that area. I think though now that they've done the fines, I really think that will help shape behavior and of course any of us who have any access to news directors or broadcasters can certainly ask that they do better with their captioning and maybe it's a bigger issue. Maybe if we got them to be better with their captioning on every day stuff, then the emergency stuff -- so again I think that's an area that I agree either could be more proactive things done and I didn't describe that initially. And it's an area that's been of great concern to the community that I work for for several years. We're also concerned that they sometimes only do the beep beep beep and then they don't present the information auditorially for blind individuals. So we're sort of in the same boat that deaf individuals are and then have to go turn on the radio. So we all have to play mix and match with our devices. >> RACHEL: Yeah, definitely. Okay, I had interrupted you there. >> PAT: That's okay. I think I was pretty well fine on that. >> RACHEL: Okay. We do have -- that's, you know, some of what you're saying there is really helpful and we definitely have a number of advocates who are tuning in today who are interested kind of all a long the way in what they can be doing, you know, to really promote a lot of the change that NCD really lays out and there is certainly among some people who are writing in some dismay at a number of the stories that are in the first part of the report. >> PAT: Right. >> RACHEL: Of some of the really horrible things that have happened because we weren't prepared. >> PAT: Well, the first thing I would say is you will always get more attention in trying to plan about things outside of the emergency than you get inside an emergency. Okay? So the best time to act is when there isn't an emergency, and I would ask -- I would call my city and my county and ask what their emergency plans are for people with disabilities. Can they send them to you? If they don't have them, then ask what group is responsible for their overall emergency management? Usually there is a city or county or state office that does that, and then work with them on disability issues. I think sometimes people in government get very overwhelmed as they think about the issue, how do you do, for example, a drill evacuating a hospital? Well, you know, you would probably interrupt somebody's gallbladder surgery and they probably wouldn't be very appreciative of that. So it's the kind of thing where I think it quickly looks like it might be almost impossible to deal with, and also I think institutions get a lot of focus, nursing homes and group homes and things like that, which are very valid, but it's not the whole group of people with disabilities obviously. So the first thing all of us can do is to figure out where we live, what our cities are doing and what our counties are doing and what our states are doing. And I can tell you that one of the other reasons I'm very excited about this report is my own experience in using it in the few short days that it's been out, is that people react very well to it. It's easy to read. It has footnotes as to where the data came from. It's all pulled together in one place. That coupled with the executive order where the president set up the interagency coordinating council and the letters that homeland security did out to the states saying they need to include people with disabilities in their efforts. Those two pieces will create an opportunity, at least that's what I've witnessed and so I think we need to use the timing of this report as something very important and we all need to get involved on whatever level we can to improve the local plans related to people with disabilities, as well as our own plans, which I think I talked about, and it's certainly something on my list. I know a fellow council member mentioned -- it was Cathy Martinez and she lives in San Francisco -- and she was stranded in an emergency in San Francisco, and after that experience, she was very concerned about doing better at planning. And so she's involved in an effort where they meet -- people on her block meet together routinely -- and they have decided on a place where they will store provisions like batteries and flashlights and water and, you know, the things that you should have stored up for use in case of an emergency. They actually have frequently chosen homes of people with disabilities to store those items in because that way that becomes the center. And so you don't have to worry about can that person, you know, get to this location or whatever. You've solved the problem because you've chosen the location to be their home. Which I thought was a very inventive solution and a very inclusive and it also gave the person with the disability the leadership role in being that central location. Which I thought was a nice thing to have happen. So I think there is -- I think the key here is that we finally have a tool where we said, okay, where are we? What's the state of the nation? What's the state of counties? What's the state of cities? What's the state of people with disabilities? And we pulled it altogether in a less than 100 page document. It's easy to follow and easy to read and it's received very well. I can tell you it's probably one of the easiest tools to use in terms of a report to create change and I've already done it. So I do have some experience in actually making use of it. >> RACHEL: Can you talk about what you've done, how you've used the report? >> PAT: Well, I sat down with the people in our government homeland security office at the state level, and number one, just as I mentioned, they were very excited to have it all pulled together in one place. It's not that they were uninformed about the issues, but having such documented information altogether and such specific information about things that can be done made a major difference. And so as, for example, they worked with the NOAA people on the output of the information about the radios, they made sure the information about people who are deaf was included in that promotional effort and then they also involved some of the state agencies that do a lot of human service provision and so at every step now they are working on to make sure that people with disabilities are included in the ways that they're doing things. They also are going to work toward inclusion of people with -- of real people with real disabilities in drills that are conducted in our state. So, again, you start somewhere. There is plenty to do. We can't all do it all at once, but you start somewhere and then you keep going. >> RACHEL: There is a lot of interest from the audience in kind of understanding how the report is being used. Can you talk about who has gotten copies of the report, you know, what NCD is doing with it. >> PAT: I may not have the full picture on this, but the pieces I know are the report is always sent to the president and all members of Congress. So all of your representatives and senators and Congress have gotten a copy, as well as it goes out on the NCD website and it goes out to the list serve of NCD and then there was a press release about the report's publication. And there has been a number of articles in the news about it. So, again, at the press conference there were a number of people involved, both with disability organizations and with federal agencies that deal with emergency management and homeland security was involved and actually did a press release about the report as well, which I found very encouraging. I also wanted to mention that this report also helps build on some other reports that NCD has done because a lot of the issues in emergency preparedness are issues of compliance with other laws. I mean, we talked about compliance with the Telecommunications Act by broadcasters. That's an issue, but other reports NCD has done are about compliance with the ADA, compliance with Section 504 and 508 of the rehabilitation act. If we had perfect compliance with those, then we would have much better emergency management systems. So I think that they all kind of fit together in their own way and one of the other things that the council did that we found to be very interesting and enlightening is at our last quarterly meeting in Honolulu, we had a panel of people from emergency management come and speak with us and they talked about the kinds of things they had done thus far at including people with disabilities. Of course our report wasn't out yet, so we couldn't really have a discussion about the report, but it was a very wonderful time because I think we -- we learned as council members because we learned more about how they do their work, how they plan, which enlightens us better in terms of ways to be involved, and then they learned from our questions and our comments about ways they could increase the participation of people with disabilities. So we were all excited about that. I talked to the panel members afterward and they were also excited about it, and I think that is an example of something that NCD tries to do as we have our quarterly meetings, particularly as we move our meetings around the country is to interact with people in that part of the country, either with a public forum as we did in New Mexico and get input from native Americans, but for example, I think we set a better ground work now for people in Hawaii to work with the various levels of government and the various agencies that relate to emergency management. It's sort of like highlighted this issue, and so we lent our name and the level of our work to inviting these individuals to serve on a panel and created this interaction with us. Then at the same time there were local people from Hawaii there who can continue that dialogue and then improve those services. So I think all of those are a part of it. >> RACHEL: Okay, I'm getting a lot of questions that kind of continue along this same line, but maybe asking for a little bit more detail about what NCD might be doing to -- you know, to promote some of the change that's really discussed in the report or that's recommended. One of the questions is, is NCD partnering with any other organizations that also address these issues in trying to move things forward? >> PAT: I don't know that we're specifically partnering, but for sure we work closely with the national organizations that relate to people with disabilities. At our press conference at the national press club, we included a representative from the National Organization on Disability, which has taken a very proactive role in emergency preparedness and people with disabilities including questions in their Harris poll and in publishing information in this area. We included a lady who has sued a mall about emergency preparedness, et cetera, et cetera. So it's a little too soon. I mean, the report has been out less than a couple of weeks now. >> RACHEL: We need to have you back in a little bit. >> PAT: Right. But primarily our role is to make the recommendations to Congress and to the president. And so we hope that some of the interaction that we've had with the agencies will result in some of the changes that need to be made. >> RACHEL: Okay. Can you talk a little bit to the executive order that came out and what you can say in terms of enforcement and executive orders? >> PAT: Well, that's not really my area in specific, but I can talk in general terms about it. I know the president released that order last July and basically it helped elevate this issue and it created the communication across agency lines, and then they are supposed to issue a report by July this year outlining the kinds of things that need to be done. Of course just making recommendations doesn't make them happen. So, you know, it sort of depends on, you know, how agencies look at those kind of recommendations and I think also with governments and with really anything else, it depends a lot on the kind of relationships that were formed between the individuals in that group as to, down, how excited they get about this being an achievable kind of thing and how to do it and then what they're able to do as they go back to their agency in terms of elevating this as an important issue that their agency takes on. >> RACHEL: Okay. Shifting gears a little bit, I have some questions that have to do more with evacuation devices. One really wants to know -- one of the questioners wants to know if there is a resource they can consult when they're considering different types of evacuation devices? And they are specifically interested in helping people evacuate from multistory buildings. So I guess evacuation chairs. >> PAT: Yeah, I don't know of a consumer report kind of thing, you know, if that's what the question is. I certainly would concede that we need such a thing. It would seem to me, if I were purchasing -- which I have done in the past -- such devices, I think I would be more likely to call and talk to organizations that hire people with disabilities that live in high rises, and talk to them about their experience with different devices. That's probably the best advice I can give. That's not something that NCD covered in this report because, of course, it was advice to the president and Congress. >> RACHEL: Right. And my guess is that the Job Accommodation Network has a list of different options and may be able to speak to them some. I'll try to look online for that while you're talking so I can get that to people about that. >> PAT: I can also tell you that when I did purchase, I actually had the reps come and I actually rode in the chairs myself because, you know, I not only wanted to see -- I actually used them with someone in them myself and I actually rode in them myself because I think those are important things to know. I want to know what the experience of the person using the chair is and what the experience of the person riding in the chair is. >> RACHEL: Right. And also in our office -- I'm trying to think, we have three or four people who use the evacuation chairs -- because each of them and their bodies and their limitations differ, the same chair was not appropriate for each one of them. So, you know, somebody who is a low level para, you know, but has a lot of upper body strength and balance is going to be able to use one chair really well, while somebody who is a high level quad is not going to be able to use that chair as well. >> PAT: Right. >> RACHEL: And then you also have to take into account who is going to actually be operating the chair because typically -- I guess the ones I've seen -- you have to have an able bodied person. >> PAT: Right. >> RACHEL: Who can then lower somebody in the evacuation device. >> PAT: Right. >> RACHEL: So you need to look at who do you have to do that. >> PAT: I also found that storage of the chair was important and part of why I bought what I did is because it had an actual storage unit that mounted on the wall and what I had observed in other situations was if they don't have their own place that can't be moved, they get moved and so the fact that you have them gets lessened because they aren't -- they don't stay in the spot. And so it is less of a protection than you had intended. So obviously that's a piece. You know, I also meant to mention a strange kind of spinoff thing that's happened about homeland security that's not an evacuation thing, but here is the deal: As our alert level changes from color to color, sometimes the security perimeter of certain public buildings expands and as that perimeter expands, what that means for people with disabilities is there is no longer the number of accessible parking places because usually those are the closer parking places and frequently the perimeter expands past those places, and for individuals who are blind, it frequently means that you no longer know your route from where you can get dropped off because you can't get from to get dropped off close to the place as close to the building as you previously did. So I think sometimes there is planning that is different now that we all must do. I know we've gotten calls about the social security office. Prior to 9/11, you could actually pull up underneath the building, drop somebody off, walk them into a lobby, come out, get in your car, go park and come back. Well, since 9/11, that's not been allowed. And so if people don't know that and say someone is driving a relative to apply for SSI, they're not able to walk distances, it's become a very difficult kind of thing to get close enough that they can walk in and of course if you don't know this ahead of time it's particularly a problem. So I think that's a change in our current state of the world environment that we as people with disabilities are having to adapt to. >> RACHEL: Yeah, that's true. Things do continue to change. Okay, I have a set of questions that have to do with 9-1-1 services. And one I think definitely comes from somebody in Texas because I think it refers to something we heard about in the news here, the question is are Internet phone service providers required to have 9-1-1 services and accessible 9-1-1 services for people with disabilities? >> PAT: It doesn't appear so right now, and in fact our attorney general is also suing a company because he didn't feel like that they had notified people who were purchasing that phone that that particular phone could not access 9-1-1. So I think part of the issue is, is customers as we purchase phones then we need to be sure what that phone will and will not do, and phones are not generic and all doing like they used to be or all the same. And that is a change that as a customer and both as employers who buy phones and as individuals who buy phones have to be aware of. So, yes, some phones will dial 9-1-1 and some will not, and certainly we've had issues here in Texas about that particular thing. >> RACHEL: Okay. Also on the 9-1-1 issue -- let's see, the national emergency member association had a committee working towards more awareness for 9-1-1 professionals. I guess I assume that means awareness of answering calls from people with disabilities. What would you like to emphasize regarding this area of emergency response? >> PAT: Well, I would think it's very important, number one, that people who are deaf know to call 9-1-1 and know that they will get routed to a TDD. I know that sometimes people call relay to call 9-1-1. Well, you're losing some time when you do that, individuals that do that. If I were a TDD user, I think I would call periodically just to be sure all of that was working in my area -- maybe once a year, kind of like checking your smoke alarm and things like that. >> RACHEL: Is that legal to do? >> PAT: I don't know. That's a good question. It's one I would want to do -- whether it's legal, I don't know the answer to that. >> RACHEL: Okay, I don't know either. Okay, hang on. Sorry, I just got a new batch of questions in here. Okay, one of them has to do with -- they've heard about recent complaints about children in schools being stuck on second floors during fire drills and the question is are public schools supposed to include children with disabilities during evacuation training? >> PAT: Yes, I would think 504 would require that because obviously preparing for emergencies is a program of that school. If it's important for students, it's important for students with disabilities. I think too often people think that either the professionals are going to be responsible for you. Well, all the professionals are supposed to help be responsible for all the students, but that doesn't mean that students with disabilities have any less need for drill as any student. I know I recently saw -- heard of a drill in which they were having people simulate disabilities, but it was not necessarily as effective obviously as it could have been had they used actual people with disabilities because they didn't really have enough knowledge to know how to simulate. >> RACHEL: Right. Well, and also I think, you know, that there is such variations among people with disabilities that, you know, you definitely need practice with people who have different types of disabilities. >> PAT: Right. >> RACHEL: All right, just going back to evacuation chairs just for a minute, most guides to safety don't recommend the use of evacuation chairs. Why is that? Can you comment on that? >> PAT: I don't know the answer to that. >> RACHEL: Okay. >> PAT: And I had never heard that. >> RACHEL: I haven't either. So maybe we'll hear back from that questioner. Okay, and can you talk about the difference between an area of rescue assistance and an area of refuge? And there seems to be some interest in this, you know, as it relates to people with disabilities who are part of the plan is often for them to wait in a certain place for a rescues emergency crew to come and retrieve them. >> PAT: Right. I mean, I don't know necessarily what the difference is just from the words I would guess that rescue assistance implies that you expect someone to come and get you. Refuge may mean you're waiting in a safe place. So, you know, I have actually -- in the stuff I've read, I've seen them use differently. So that's a very good question. I'm not the one to answer it unfortunately. >> RACHEL: Okay, we'll have to look into that and get back to that individual. We can try to look that up. Okay, can you talk a little bit about responsibilities of employers and having emergency plans. One of the questions is can an employer have an emergency plan for people with disabilities? >> PAT: Well, an employer needs to have its emergency plan for all employees, and that includes any employees that have disabilities. So, yes, an employer not only can, but should have a plan, an overall plan, and that plan needs to adequately prepare for how a person with a disability is to evacuate. So, you know, in fact I've often -- I'm a dog guide user, so I've thought that I'll put in my plan that I'll offer guide services until we get all the batteries and all flashlights, I'll help people find all the stuff. So, yeah, everybody's needs need to be taken into account and I think one of the aspects of the NCD report is that it just talks about people who are activity challenged because you don't necessarily have to have a label as a disability to be challenged by a particular activity. There are people without disabilities who don't drive. There are people who for varying reasons don't run. They may or may not have disabilities. So whatever those things are that you need people to do, then you need to prepare for the fact that there will always be -- or almost always be some set of people who cannot do those particular things. And so in order to organize -- I know we had a discussion in our building because we have quite a few people in the public to come into our bidding -- people with disabilities, how do you know where they are and what they are doing and how to accommodate them and I know we looked at the Access Board's evacuation plans as a model plan because they have a number people with disabilities and because they are a premier agency of the federal government, and we found that they tended to focus more on the employees and then have whoever the employee that that person is visiting be responsible for assisting the person that was a visitor because obviously you're not going to be able to train each visitor as they sign in as to which exit they go out depending on what room they are in in the next two hours. So you can't plan for every instance, but people here usually are here to see somebody, you know, they're not just here in a break room. They're here in connection with some other staff person. And so if we think back through it, rather than trying to figure out exactly where they are and keep track of all that, just making the person they're visiting responsible in case of an emergency and using the emergency they have because they have better knowledge of the building, et cetera, in trying to assist that person. And that seems to be a more rationale approach, but I know as we worked on our plan here, we looked through the Internet and we used the Department of Justice technical assistance, we've used and frequently refer people to EEOC's fact sheet for employers and we also look at -- looked at the Access Board's plan. >> RACHEL: And just to mention to the audience and to let them know that you and I had talked a little bit before we went live today, that we will go ahead and add some of those additional resources up to the web page so that, you know, this webcast will be archived and it will be available for people to go back and to listen to it again as well as to read the transcript of it. And so to that archived page, we will add those additional resources. >> PAT: Great. >> RACHEL: And we also found, to let you guys know, that the Job Accommodation Network does have a list of evacuation devices or certainly companies that create them. So if you -- we can put a link to the Job Accommodation Network as well. You can go in there and look their searchable -- and you can put in evacuation devices and you can find listings. >> PAT: Be sure and book mark that page because SOAR is an invaluable tool. If I were looking for it on the web that's exactly where I would have looked. >> RACHEL: Yeah, it really is an incredible tool. And also just to, you know, go back to people who are particularly interested in selecting those, that you really want to consult with whoever is going to use them to make sure that what you're buying is going to actually work for them because they're not a one size fits all deal. Okay, let's see, I have a question from somebody who is particularly interested in technology and they want to know what's been done, if anything, on the federal government front around emergency planning and the acquisition of evacuation and tracking systems to evacuate people from a building? >> PAT: I don't know of any work that's being done right now in that particular area from the federal government. There may be some that I'm unaware of. I've heard people talk about the notion, but the times that I've looked into that, like using GPS and things of that nature, it wasn't quite sophisticated enough. You could tell we're going to get there, but at least at the time I was looking into it, we weren't quite there. For example, you can envision that a university campus might well desire to have that for students with disabilities who need assistance during evacuations, because they are all over the place as you would expect them to be as students, but where are they right now? Well, if you had a screen that you could turn on that showed you little dots, then you could then work on trying to get the assistance to wherever they are or you would know if they were in harm's way. But at least the research that I have recently done that we're not quite there yet. Now there could be things I don't know about. I did hear of a -- an alarm system where the sound of the alarm is actually at the exit to assist individuals with visual impairments. So that rather than just having an alarm wherever it is, they're actually located at the exits so you could use the sound as a way to orient yourself, which actually could be useful for everyone. >> RACHEL: Yes, that's true. And then those of us whose offices happen to be located near the speaker won't have to deal with that any more. >> PAT: Right. You know, I have found that I am much more willing to take the time and ask hotel staff to take the time now to orient me to emergency exits and actually the person that gets credit for my change of mind about that is the manager at the Ritz Carlton in Pentagon City because he actually oriented me to my room which is the first time I've ever had a manager orient me to my room. >> RACHEL: They have very good service there. >> PAT: Which is a trip in itself. A place to stay, five star, but he was the one that brought it up and obviously there is more that blind people have nowadays to get oriented to in your rooms besides your A. C. You have your remote control and your computer hook ups and it's just more tech neck al and more buttons. I said, wow, that's the first time I've ever really known where the emergency exit is. He said you should never, never ever stay in a hotel without knowing and you should expect that of hotel staff. I thought, okay. I think I will. >> RACHEL: And I guess because they're in Pentagon city, you know, they are particularly sensitive. >> PAT: That's very true, but it was a very good lesson for me. I always thought oh, well, I'll know which way people are going or some kind of excuse and I think we all kind of do that. At least I certainly did, and he was very -- he was very influential in changing my behavior. >> RACHEL: That's great. If anyone is in that neighborhood, stop by and let him know. >> PAT: Right. He's a good guy. >> RACHEL: I did get a message in from somebody who suggests that it's not legal to make false calls to 9-1-1, but that there is certainly a way you can contact the emergency services through a nonemergency line and then set up a time to test the system. >> PAT: To check it out. Great. That's really good assistance. >> RACHEL: Thank you to who sent that in. Okay, are there other -- Pat, other recommendations that the report makes that you would like to highlight for us? >> PAT: Not really in specific because you know NCD deals more with the particular areas more like policy development and development within agencies and not specifically the things that individuals can do, et cetera, et cetera. I can tell you that also the governor's committee did a survey of Texas cities several years ago and -- >> RACHEL: I'm sorry, of Texas City or of Texas cities? >> PAT: Texas cities, plural, and some of the things we found were that some of them had included people with disabilities in their planning. We were excited to see that. Many of them did not have clear policies stating that service animals were allowed like in shelters or temporary facilities. That's something that could easily be fixed. Many of them did not have clear policies about medications, special feedings, special diets in sheltering situations. Some of them did know whether their shelters were accessible and some did not, and in Texas that's easier because we have a different situation hereof how to find out if a building has passed our state system that requires accessibility. So we have a little bit different avenue one can go, but we use that tool, again, to make people more aware of what kinds of things might be issues. I think the other thing is that sometimes people with individuals desire to let entities know that they might need additional is a sis tans like fire departments or police departments or whatever. Some people prefer that as an option, others don't. But you know, if you do prefer that, again, doing it outside the emergency -- I know I had another experience when I worked for the Criss Cole Rehabilitation Center which is a training center for blind adults. I had a number of blind adults who had diabetes and we had an ice storm. Well, my contract nurses for the evening couldn't get in. Well, fortunately all the people who had diabetes at that time were able to administer their own insulin, but what if they had not been able to? So, you know, you have to think about -- they couldn't get out to somewhere that could do that. Well, so after it got sunny and the ice melted. I sat down with the city of Austin person and I knew that I had been lucky at that time because all my people had the talent to meet their own needs. But I might not be so lucky the next time and so I sat down with them. And he said, yes, we have a list that we keep of people who have emergency needs for whom we will transport contract nurses, and we will now put you on the list so that if your nurses call and say I work for the Criss Cole Center and I need to get there to help people who need my medical assistance, then we will have the police transport your nurses. And that actual policy is still in place, but I think -- I tell that story just because you can get things outside of an emergency that you cannot get during an emergency. And so if you've set it up beforehand, you have a greater likelihood of then getting your needs met at the time. >> RACHEL: Yeah, I think that's really important. Let me think what else -- I'm sorry to do the ums live -- but I'm just looking at these few questions that I have remaining. One has to do with the report -- I just wanted some clarification, did you say that it was in July that a report would be coming out from the interagency coordinating council on emergency preparedness and individuals with disabilities and how can people get a copy of that? >> PAT: I would just monitor -- I'm sure it will be announced in various ways, but probably around the anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act. The executive order I think was issued last year on the 22nd or so, and then in the executive order it says that they will have a report to the president by July this year. So assuming they do that, then I'm sure it will be released at that time. I would check with the Department of Homeland Security folks. >> RACHEL: Okay. Great. Actually I just got a couple of questions that are almost identical. People are interested in some specific examples of emergency evacuation plans, and can you talk about kind of in that some examples of accommodations besides evacuation chairs that are useful? >> PAT: Okay. Well, of course there are many different settings. I happen to work on the first floor, so it certainly makes certain things easier, but as we have people with mobility impairments, all of our entrances on this floor are actually accessible. So we have more than one choice and that makes evacuation easy. So in this particular environment -- and I think that's why they close to move our office to the first floor, is they were moving offices around because it makes evacuation really better for everyone. Obviously that's not a choice that many people have. We happen to be housed all in one building. But sometimes people assign buddies to provide assistance, either as guides or to make sure people who are deaf are getting the information. In our building, for example, it's kind of peculiar because the fire bells -- like if there is a fire on three, we can't hear the bell on one, which is a peculiar thing and has nothing to do with deafness, but we would never know there is a fire on three and yet it might actually impact our building and I really don't like it for the people on four. But anyway, so there is challenges regardless in evacuations and then there is particular challenges as you turn off elevators and create inaccessibility because of the emergency. It's necessary sometimes. There are some elevators that are built that report to be able to be used during emergencies. I don't know if anyone last done a particular report on how well those do work, but I know when the Brown Heeley building was built here in Austin, they did a lot of research in wanting to have that installed as an example of something different that can be done that creates greater access. There is also the new ibot wheelchair that claims stairs. It's not fast so it could create a barrier to other people and it's very expensive, but, you know, we may see more people using those so it may come into play in terms of how -- if you had maybe a person using one of those you might have to have a designated time or place that worked for that person that wouldn't get clogged up with other people, et cetera. And I know in the towers there was a whole organization that employed a lot of blind individuals that didn't lose anybody -- of course they were on a lower floor, but then there were other people with disabilities up higher who were told to stay and wait and they did stay and wait and lost their lives. Of course, who knows, in an emergency you just never know. That's really the point is you don't know. >> RACHEL: Right. >> PAT: But you know, we clearly aren't doing as well as we could. I know in the hurricanes in Florida, they didn't have a good way to notify individuals who were deaf. And so they knew where particular folks lived and so police officers would go and just motion for them to come with them. Well, you know, they don't know if they were being arrested or what the deal was. So that's certainly not the best approach. I think one of the key things is to sit down with the people with disabilities and talk about it. And talk about the different scenarios that could happen and ask them what they need to be able to evacuate, because as you have mentioned, Rachel, different people need different things and I know what I need, but sometimes people have assumed -- I know it always cracks me up on airplanes. They say, ma'am, if there is an emergency, you wait right here and we'll come back to get you. I'm going, right, I'm going with the first arm I see moving in the direction that I think is going the way I need to go. I doubt that I would be waiting, but I don't argue about it. >> RACHEL: Now, once everyone streams in one direction, I don't think someone is going to come running back. >> PAT: I'm not going to wait until the tail end of that line if I know where it's going, I'm going to be in it. >> RACHEL: Okay, somebody actually just wrote in and wants to know if they can get -- how they can get a copy of the survey of Texas cities that you were talking about. >> PAT: It's actually posted on our Internet site and you're welcome to put that link up, too, Rachel. I can send it to you. >> RACHEL: I have it. It's a good site. Actually you guys have some great resources up there. >> PAT: We were fairly early in our emergency management survey and we presented at a number of different conferences, and one of the fun things we did was walk around at the exhibits and we would ask people how their products would relate to people with disability. We got a lot of blank stares. We also got people who really started trying to think through and trying to answer, you know, what we were asking, which was quite a lot of fun. >> RACHEL: Well, yes, I can see that. Not for them, but very fun for you. Okay, we're winding down to the end of the questions that we have here. This one actually I can -- we can actually refer somebody to call us for more details, but this one asks are hotels required to have emergency warning devices for people who are deaf? Because I found that many hotels do not. >> PAT: Well, it depends on if that's readily achievable is probably the best answer. In Texas, if they've been built since '68 -- well, no -- since '78, they will have been required to, and I would think under the ADA if it's readily achievable they would be required to. >> RACHEL: Right. Which basically at this point -- you know, at this stage of the game, I mean, all hotels should have the emergency warning devices for people who are deaf and that sometimes the hotels have specific rooms that are designated and they have equipment set up in there and then other hotels have the equipment at the desk that, you know, you check in so you can put it into any room. Is that you check out the equipment so you can put it into any room. It is certainly to the person who sent this question in -- yes, I would say there are a lot of hotels that are out of compliance, but they are supposed to have it and if you wanted to know some specific information about what it is they are required to have and how many, et cetera, then you can go ahead and give a call to 800-949-4232, and that's voice as well as TTY or relay, or you can just simply send us another E-mail and we'll go ahead and connect you with somebody here in our office who can go through those specifics can you. Okay, I think we have another question somebody is asking for resources in general. So I just want to go ahead and reiterate that we'll be putting up a number of these resources we've been mentioning on the archived page. And then I think that may be all the questions that I have right now. Pat, are there other things you want to really stress to people? >> PAT: I guess, you know, as part of a city's work and ADA compliance, they need to address these questions. So, again, everybody has the opportunity to go and talk with their city and ask them what they're doing, ask them how they can get involved. Make sure that your employer has a plan and what that plan is. Again, I have work to do. I'm going to get more informed about the exits and the procedures in some of the facilities I frequent and the systems I use. You know, you think you're prepared, but you rarely are for an emergency because they come in all different kinds and forms and I don't think anybody that I know is adequately prepared. So I just think -- you know, as we began our survey, we actually did a tip sheet also that we sent, sort of like if you read the tip sheet well enough, you could change a lot of your stuff and have really good answers to questions. So that was, you know, the smart way to do it. But all that information is available and so if people want to improve in this area, there are some things that can be done that don't cost much and can be done by individuals that will improve all of our outcomes for people with disabilities. So if we can all start with the notion that in an emergency everyone should survive, then more of us will as we prepare adequately. >> RACHEL: Well, thank you very much. That's certainly a very important discussion and I think it's been really helpful to get a lot of new information from you as well as to now have this report which as you mentioned really is a great tool for people to use in their efforts now. >> PAT: Well, I'm really excited about it, and I think people will find if they print it out or ask for a printed copy, and take it to their local officials, their city, their county, their state officials or to their employers, I think you'll be surprised at how functional it is and how excited people get about it. >> RACHEL: Yeah, and you are a terrific advocate for it, too. >> PAT: Yeah, I like this area. Thank you. >> RACHEL: Okay. Well so thank you very much. If people have outstanding questions, you know, feel free to E-mail them in and we'll try to get to you offline, and again, today's presentation will be archived. So you'll be able to come back and listen again as well as read the transcript. And in addition to thanking Pat, I'd like to acknowledge a couple of others. First of all, to mention NIDRR who funds the host for today's program, which is the Disability Law Resource Project. And if you have additional questions that relate to especially the ADA piece of this, please do give us a call at 800-949-4232. And that number works anywhere in the country. You'll be connected to your regional ADA center. And then thanks to others who have made today possible, the ILRU webcast team, includes Marj Gordon, Sharon Finney, Dawn Heinsohn, Vinh Nguyen, Maria Dell Bosque, also Rob Dickehuth and our realtime captioner Marie Bryant. And so with that, we'd like to go ahead and close out and then thanks a lot, Pat, and I look forward to doing this again with you in the future. >> PAT: Thank you very much. >> RACHEL: Okay, have a great afternoon, everyone. Bye-bye.