1 All About Accessible Parking and Compliance. Presenter: Aaron McCullough. >> JACQUIE: Good afternoon everyone and welcome to the webcast all about accessible parking and compliance. My name is Jacquie Brennan with ILRU. I will be moderating today's webcast and voicing your questions to the presenter. You can submit questions any time throughout this webcast by clicking the submit question button at the bottom of your RealOne Player screen or simply address an E-mail to webcast@ilru.org. We've worked out our speaker's question and answer preference this way. He is going to present for 15 or 20 minutes and then we are going to hit the questions. We have already gotten several questions before we even started. So we anticipate that we will have a lot of questions so be sure to E-mail yours in and he will spend the vast majority of the time answering questions. Additionally, if anyone has technical difficulties during this webcast, please call us as (713)520-0232 and dial 0 for the operator. This number is both voice and TTY capable. As previously mentioned today's webcast is all about accessible parking and compliance. It is being presented by Aaron McCullough. Aaron, before you get started on the topic, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself. >> AARON: Sure, and again I'm glad to be here and I want to thank ILRU for bringing me here and Jacquie for moderating. 2 I'm an attorney licensed in the state of Texas. I'm a former employee of ILRU and I've worked here for a number of years doing similar things to what Jacquie does in providing some guidance on the Americans with Disabilities Act and other related laws to those target audiences that ILRU and the Disability and Business Technical Assistance Center serve. Again, I have since moved on to a private practice focused on a broader litigation and civil rights practice but my heart is still with the Americans with Disabilities Act and particularly the built environment. And so this is an area that I'm actively litigating in at the moment. Mainly because there is very few people in this area who are doing that type of law. So I consider it kind of my obligation to move forward with that kind of work. As Jacquie mentioned, I'm going to spend a little bit of time doing a brief overview of I think the high points in the Americans with Disabilities Act and a little bit of related law with regards to parking, but I want to leave the vast majority of the time available for your questions. We've done a very similar webcast like this before. I want to say three years ago or so and we probably didn't allow for enough time and had to follow up I think on 50 or 60 unanswered questions. So we're going to not leave that many sitting on the table unanswered live because we want this to live in the archives as a resource. So we'll make as much time as possible and to that end I want to get to the beginning of the content. When I started working with people with disabilities as a social worker, the Americans with Disabilities Act had just been passed. And it 3 was made abundantly clear by both my co-workers, classmates and those clients with mobility impairments that parking was a pivotal part of that law and ensuring accessible parks was essential. And it was made really clear to me why this is. If you can't safely park and if you use mobility assistance or mobility aids, unshifting that equipment from your vehicle and safely exit and enter on to a property, how welcome do you feel to that place of business or that -- or for that matter that multifamily dwelling or facility. The Americans with Disabilities Act has some pretty, I'd say, complex regulations that govern new construction, but with regards to parking it's pretty straightforward what you have to do. If you build a new facility and you are required by law to have parking or you provide parking that's available to the public or employees, it needs to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines and the amount of accessible spaces and the types of accessible spaces which we'll go over briefly are based on a total aggregate number of spaces in a particular lot. It sounds pretty straightforward that if you have a parking lot open to the public and you have -- you know, you have 85 spaces that you're going to need five accessible spaces or rather actually four accessible spaces. The Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines gives you a pretty clear chart as to what that is. Other provisions require that that space be properly marked and that there be -- that it be of a certain width and that it have an adjacent access aisle that's clearly marked to indicate that it's an access aisle that's part of that accessible parking space. 4 Furthermore, essentially the ADA require that is there be a sign of a particular type that can be seen from the vehicle at the head of the space, it can be mounted on a wall. It can be mounted on a pole that indicates that this is an accessible space. There are very few other requirements except that that space be largely flat. On the new construction, they require a fairly limited cross slope and this is a safety issue. Now, keep in mind the Americans with Disabilities Act access sees built guidelines only governs new construction and to a certain extent alterations. Where you significantly alter a parking space or a parking facility to the extent that there are spaces that are altered, you also have to adhere to those standards. Now, does this mean that if you're operating a business, for example, and you have an existing parking lot and you do nothing to the space, does this mean that you don't have to do anything under the ADA? Clearly, no, you have a basic obligation to provide essential accessibility, what they call readily achievable barrier removal at the least. And the Department of Justice in its guidance on existing facilities and readily achievable barrier removals prioritizes accessible parking and says to the extent technically feasible you provide -- even in an existing unaltered space -- accessible parking which means at the very least providing a space, marking it properly and putting a sign and making sure that there is an access aisle and that that access aisle enters into an accessible route into that facility or site. That's the very least that you can do under the law. And again that seems pretty straightforward. Why does this get screwed up quite a bit? 5 It gets screwed up quite a bit because people have a confusion as to how many spaces. There are people who believe that because they are operating in an older facility that predates the ADA that they have no obligation, that there is, quote, grandfathered under the law. And time and time again in providing technical assistance on the ADA we have to remind folks that there is no such thing as grandfathering under the Americans with Disabilities Act. Again, you may have reduced burdens, but you do have burdens. So, again, it seems clear, new construction, you have to strictly comply with the ADA Accessibility Guidelines or an equivalent state standard if you have a set of state codes that have been deemed to be equivalent or exceeding the minimal standards of the ADAAG such as the case in Texas where we have our own Texas Architectural Barriers Act and our own set of standards that have been certified and that provide some additional obligations, for example, on new construction. You may have something similar in your state. So I'm encouraging you not just to look at the ADA Accessibility Guidelines, but also look at your state law to see whether there are increased obligations. For example, some of the schemes in certain states require a higher percentage of van accessible parking spaces and these are spaces that have larger access aisles to allow those folks who use the lifts and ramps in vans to clearly use that equipment and clear that equipment and then enter into the accessible route. Now, getting back to alterations, even if you're not altering the parking lot itself in any given plan of alteration, if you're making a significant alteration to the facility under the Americans with 6 Disabilities Act, you have an obligation to improve the accessible route to that -- to that altered space. This is what is known as the 20 percent rule or in the state of Texas the proportionality rule. Let's say you have a project in a restaurant where you're altering the dining area itself. And the gross cost of this project is estimated around $100,000. The disproportionality rule or the 20 percent rule would require that you plan to spend at least 20 percent of the gross costs of that improvement or that alteration in improving the route into that dining room. So that's essentially means that that space from, let's say, transportation drop-off zones, public transportation sites, bus stops, the entrance off of the sidewalk into your facility and the parking, the entrance into the building and then any circulation route through that building into the dining room needs to be improved. Now, you're required to spend no more than 20 percent of the gross costs of that renovation in improving that and that may invoke a need to improve parking, and again, to the extent that you can technically make it compliant with the new set of standards, you need to do so. Now, if you have a pretty accessible route from, let's say, the parking into the facility or your parking is compliant, then you would be spending that 20 percent on the -- the maximum 20 percent on other improvements, but you can see that even if you're not directly planning to improve parking, you may have that obligation to actually improve parking. Now, the ADA has other provisions than the built environment. One of the number one complaints that we receive -- or I say that we received when I was doing technical assistance for this organization was parking related 7 to employment. Where parking is provided to employees, it is -- it becomes a benefit of employment and it must be accessible to employees with disabilities to the extent that it's accessible to all employees. This may invoke the requirement that you go -- as an employee, you specifically accommodate an employee with maybe an a signed space. You might have to provide a reasonable accommodation that includes increasing the minimal amount of accessible spaces so that your employees with disabilities can use a space. It may mean negotiating with a contract provider of parking to ensure that they provide the space because even if you, as an employer, let's say in a downtown employment situation lease space and provide it to your employees, you haven't given up your responsibility as an employer to ensure that that is accessible. Now, the contract parking facility also has an obligation to ensure accessibility, but just because you as an employer have contracted with them doesn't lift your obligation under Title I of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Now again, we said we're going this pretty short shrift and the additional provisions in the Americans with Disabilities Act that impact parking are those special occupancies. There is one set of standards with regards to how many accessible spaces and van-accessible spaces for the vast majority of new construction. There is another set of requirements when you're dealing with medical facilities and facilities that treat -- that are targeted at rehabilitation of people with disabilities, essentially requiring additional parking as opposed to a non-- as opposed to a typical let's say retail or commercial site. And it only makes sense 8 that if you -- if you're conducting business in a facility targeted at people with disabilities, that you might need additional parking. So, again, if for example you're operating a rehabilitation -- outpatient rehabilitation facility, then you're going to have that increased obligation for increased amount of spaces and you'll want to attend to those special provisions in the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines. With regards to, let's say, multifamily dwellings, apartments and condominiums that fall underneath the fair housing provisions, there are, again, a similar set of design and construction requirements under the Fair Housing Act and the fair housing accessibility guidelines that require in new construction that you provide accessible parking of a certain amount that's distributed throughout the facility. The Americans with Disabilities Act and your somewhat equivalent state code may also get into parking within a multifamily facility, a big apartment complex, for example, in as much as there may be a leasing office or other services that are available to the public and there needs to be accessible parking that services those parts of that facility and site. But the ADA doesn't get any further in there. The general nondiscrimination provisions of the Fair Housing Act may also require that as a reasonable accommodation or modification that a tenant with a disability may need to be allowed to have an assigned space where possible or have another space installed because they would otherwise not be able to remain in their tenancy there. That's kind of a test. It's reasonable if it can be done and it's reasonable if it serves the need of the 9 disability -- if it actually impacts the disability and ensures that they can enjoy the full use of the facility in their tenancy. And again, that's a pretty short shrift on fair housing and I'm sure I'm going to get some questions on that. Where we get a lot of questions -- and a lot of I think righteous anger -- is on enforcement issues. Well, to be honest, the Americans with Disabilities Act has nothing to do with parking enforcement. For the most part enforcement is typically a law enforcement or quasi-law enforcement issue. Violations of parking and disabled-designated parking are typically subject to state law or local ordinance. Now, you're going to hear me use the phrase handicapped parking here. In almost no part of our discussions about the Fair Housing Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act guidelines and similar and supportive laws do we use the antiquated phrase handicapped. However f you look at the vast majority of handicapped parking space signage, that's the language that's used. If you look at the vast majority of state laws and local ordinances, they still refer to the parking as handicapped parking where they may have eliminated that language in their adoption of their state civil rights or local civil rights ordinance. So again you're going to hear me say that if any advocates out there take um brag, understand it is the a term of art when you're talking about accessible parking. Like I said, enforcement is typically a law enforcement issue. For example, it may be a crime at the state level. It may be a crime at the local level, or it may be a civil offense as it is in some localities in Texas, for example. In Fort Worth -- and I believe this is the case -- 10 parking in a designated accessible space is a violation of civil law and not a criminal law. However, in Dallas it's a criminal law issue. So you'll be issued a ticket and have to appear to a class c misdemeanor criminal issue. It doesn't really matter for most of the people out there who are upset about it because that's not what they are upset about. They are upset that there is very little enforcement that appears to be done. Violations of accessible parking provisions happen in several ways: People either park in spaces without designated hangtags or placards. People park there with fraudulently acquired hangtags. For example, they are not disabled but they find a clinician willing to lie about it. More often it's somebody who is using, let's say, a relative's -- particularly an elderly relative's hangtag for their own use and they don't have a disability. Often it's somebody who legitimately transports their relative with a disability or their elderly relative who has disabilities related to their age, but they are using it without that person present in violation of the law. There is also quite a bit of business in, again, just outright stolen or even forged hangtags in certain localities. There have been some ad hoc studies in large cities around the country, and I've seen figures suggesting that fraud of all kinds to the extent that they can tell in a very unscientific survey is as bad as 30 to 60 percent in some high density parking areas in large urban areas. And when you have situations, for example, like in Houston, the largest city in Texas and Dallas and the Dallas area, the second largest city, where anybody who has a hangtag or 11 placard can park in the downtown area in front of the meter and not pay. With parking being at a premium, some of the spaces in these downtown areas running 10, 15 onned $20 particularly around event days, you can see why this is something that's vulnerable to a great deal of fraud and creates a great deal of frustration with regards to people with disabilities who legitimately need these spaces. The difficulty is that the ADA doesn't solve most of this. You have to get local law enforcement interested in checking the veracity of somebody's use of a hangtag. And in some schemes in some states they have what they call fraudproof hang tags. They are very hard to handicapped because they may have holograms or other antiforgery devices on them. In addition, some states have a little more robust screening requirement for who is eligible to receive hangtags. The vast majority of political bodies that issue hangtags is that the state level, county or city level, however that's done, will typically only issue one per person. However, we've all probably observed this not being the case and that there are some people who have multiple vehicles do get issued multiple hangtags in violation of the law. So you have to get law enforcement interested in checking that. You have to get your -- for example, in Harris County you have to get the tax assessor interested in ensuring they are properly issuing these. Another big concern is private property that's open to the public. Let's say large box retailers and shopping centers, that parking is typically not enforced by law enforcement. If there is a parking patrol or a courtesy patrol that's part of the security for that facility, they may 12 issue warnings. Very seldom will they ever involve law enforcement. And to be honest, if they actually did call the police on one of their customers and asked them to write a ticket, by the time they arrived, the offender would probably have gone or the law enforcement wouldn't show a commitment to actually go to that site because, to be honest, it's a misdemeanor offense and something that they are allowed to disregard. There was an effort a few years ago in a number of localities around the Houston area, for example, where law enforcement itself had gotten interested in doing a better job enforcing accessible parking. It was basically a few officers who had personal reasons to care about the fate of people with disabilities and their ability to safely park. And it became something of a rallying cry for the community and for the advocates in the area and it became a real fee generator for the city because the fines can get fairly steep particularly from multiple offenders or multiple offenses with the same person. There are also some alternatives to enforcement that have been successful. There have been a number of movements and advocates to seek limited deputization of people with disabilities and their families to issue warning tickets and parking tickets where there is a violation -- a clear violation of the disabled parking space. You know, some people have some problems with the risk involved in training civilians essentially to have a law enforcement duty, but the vast majority of these programs are very sensible and aware that it's a potential confrontation, so they encourage people to not, you know, engage the offender, to be discrete, to always back down if confronted and those 13 programs have tended to be fairly successful and very empowering, in fact, for advocates who involve themselves in it. Another interesting alternative solution to enforcement is one that I just became aware of last week. I ran across a website called handicappedfraud.org. That's handicappedfraud.org ran by a woman named Maureen Birdsall when she was transporting her 92-year-old grandmother to and from a California hospital. And she had the only available accessible space stolen from her by somebody who pulled up in a sports car and jumped out. Somebody who appeared not to be disabled on their face and so she had to -- she was left with a choice of taking her very elderly and ill grandmother and abandoning her on the curb while she ran and found a parking space or park very far away and bring the same woman that long distance up to get treatment. This was not an acceptable solution to Ms. Birdsall and since she was a web designer, she came up with again I think a pretty interesting device to encourage people to, one, become aware of accessible parking issues and to participate in enforcement. If you find a violator, you can take a picture. You can write down the serial number of their accessible hangtag, write down their license plate number and send that in to her website through this interface that she has, and she will forward that along to local law enforcement, the Department of Public Safety or whatever governmental body is in charge of ensuring that hangtag and placards are properly issued and used. And what this has done has allowed people to catch people fraudulently using these hangtags and it's a very nonconfrontive way when in the past there seemed to be little you could do. 14 So I applaud her and I got her permission to give her a little bit of marketing which now she doesn't need because as of early this week, the Associated Press picked up her story and she's been in every national newspaper and a lot of local newspapers across the country and I believe is soon to be interviewed on the morning talk show circuit. So she's probably going to get plenty of traffic to that site. And I commended her for her good work and for giving, to be honest, an opportunity for people to participate in enforcement in a way that's not threatening. That's pretty much the entirety of the lecture. I know we're going to get good information by answering questions and I think I went over my time that I promised to spend. So Jacquie, if there are questions lined up, I'll start entertaining them now. >> JACQUIE: There are questions, Aaron. It's so good to have you back here. Okay, the first one is I get many calls and E-mails with questions on veterans license plates and parking. The issue which seems to be the most confusing in many parking enforcement groups are still not clear is related to disabled veterans plates not showing the international symbol of accessibility on them. That is vets with disabilities who have these plates have called me very angry because they got a ticket based on the lack of the symbol. Can you address that? >> AARON: Well, I understand their anger. The reality is they had the choice to choose between the disabled vet tag which gives them the same -- in most circumstances gives them the same privileges or the use of other standard placard. Now, they could get issued a hangtag which will 15 take care of that problem. What I would encourage them to do is try to raise awareness. There is not a lot I can do to take away the sting of having to take time out of your day to go answer a ticket that you were wrongfully issued, but again, it's going to be up to them to make their local law enforcement aware of this as an issue. >> JACQUIE: Okay. The next one is from a city parking manager. Are there any standards for on-street parking? We have a historic downtown with on-street metered parking. >> AARON: Well, there is not any strict design and construction standards for on-street parking now. The Access Board, which is the federal agency that writes these accessibility regulations has been entertaining a new set of guidelines that will be dealing with on-street parking and accessibility. And to be honest, it's a broader set of laws dealing with all sorts of things regarding right of ways and streets and the amount and the proper configuration of on-street parking is one of the things that's seriously holding up this new set of potential standards. The difficulty -- and I understand the frustration of somebody in a municipal government -- is that where the city, for example, provides on-street parking, they are still obliged to provide accessible on-street parking or some alternative. Because they are obliged under Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act to provide access to programs and services and arguably if you're providing on-street parking, even metered on-street parking to people without disabilities, then that becomes a program or service. 16 There have been some pretty successful models on how to design it, but when you think about it, it does get complicated. Is it straight in parking? Is it slashed in park something is it parallel parking on the street? And what implications does that have for properly con figuring a space that's wide enough and has an access aisle and then needs to enter on to the accessible right of way. In a historical area that may even get more complicated, for example, say like in New Orleans where there is a great deal of old historical buildings and a very robust historical preservation organization and you'll have masonry marks on almost every corner that are two or three hundred years old and so it's not really an option to tear up that sidewalk in order to provide the proper parking. I understand that it's a difficulty. There are some pretty good models. I would encourage you to look a little bit harder. Look at your situation. There are some logical ways to handle it. Again it's fairly easy to draw it out. The difficulty is how many do you have to have? In addition, there can be alternatives you might provide surface lots that are near clusters of street parking and dedicate those to accessible spaces if that's otherwise -- let's say if you've got a historical district with a two foot high curb, you're probably not going to successfully make an accessible space on street side parking. So you have to be as creative as you can. If you have a more specific example, then I might provide you with a more specific answer, but I assure you that it can be solved in a way that I think best serves that need to provide access to that essential program of parking. 17 >> JACQUIE: A local hospital built a six story parking garage this year and there are about 15 accessible parking spaces all on the first level. There is no protected warning path from the spaces to the crosswalk by the elevator and there are steps to the crosswalk which forces wheelchair users to exit the garage by using the vehicle exit. This is from a community work incentives coordinator in Tennessee. And just wants to know if you can comment on that situation. >> AARON: Well, if it is as you've described, it's in violation of the law. Simple as that. You know, you can cluster your parking in the parking garage. You can kind of treat that like a single lot and cluster it on the -- on a particular floor. Usually it's on the floor where it's served by an elevator or covered path. You don't need to be sending people who are using mobility aids into vehicular -- into a vehicular way and if you're providing access to people without disabilities into the facility that are safer, you need to make sure that's accessible. Having steps along an accessible route in new construction is unacceptable and a violation of the law. So it sounds like this is just poor planning, but it probably can be fixed. And I would encourage them to make that abundantly clear to whoever is operating the facilities. >> JACQUIE: All right. This questioner says it seems to me some people get their handicapped parking permits very easily. They don't seem to have trouble walking and unless they have a hidden disability like heart disease, I don't see how they got them at all and it seems unfair to those in wheelchairs and those who use canes. Can you comment? >> AARON: Again, that kind of goes along with my little ee 18 earlier about fraudulently acquired and fraudulently used hangtags. You know, understand that someone may be using it because they are picking up, let's say a relative with a disability or an elderly relative. But also understand that the guy for receiving a hangtag or placard vary across every state. All the applications kind of look the same, but how robustly the agency in charge of issuing these actually check the facts, you know, vary greatly. The instructors -- the instructions that they offer to clinicians on determining whether or not someone is eligible can vary quite a bit, too. I've seen some of these application that is are very specific and will ask questions to the extent of, does this person have an injury, impairment or disability that would severely limit their ability to walk more than 50 yards? And, you know, that's a pretty clear cut clinical fine line. And that offers a chiropractor or a general physician or surgeon or some clinician an opportunity to say yeah. Clearly this person would be impacted by this and they could benefit from it. Some of them just ask if they -- do they have an illness or an impairment that would limit their ability to walk long distances? That's a great deal more vague. And so I would encourage you to work with whatever body is issuing those requirements and try to get them to cleanup that language and provide as much guidance to clinicians as possible. You know, doctors aren't lawyers and doctors aren't policymakers for the most part. Neither are physical therapists or kier practice tores, et cetera, and they need as much clear guidance on what the limits of the law is. Understand this isn't an ADA issue, this is a local or state law issue. And so you have an opportunity to impact this. This isn't 19 something that you get a great deal of objection to cleaning up. And again, there is some pretty good examples. Again, there are states that are doing better jobs than others. But there is also this issue: There are a great deal of hidden disabilities. There are people who have surprising -- who of a surprisingly great amount of impact from, let's say, a pulmonary disease that makes it difficult for them to walk long distances. You'll have people, for example, with MS who have cycling symptoms and don't look that severe that day, but it's actually working -- walking long distance that can trigger a worsening of symptoms. You'll have people with additional other hidden types of disabilities, so it's never quite perfect you know when you see somebody that looks pretty able bodied and isn't using a mobility aid, but again you have to kind of sit back and realize -- and hope that they are legitimately using the hangtag. >> JACQUIE: Right. I know it's frustrating for a lot of people when they just see someone and it doesn't look like that person has a disability, but there are really more hidden disabilities than people realize in owes those situations. >> AARON: When I hit grad school, I actually saw a student adds leet who was using a hangtag, something on a scholarship who is now a professional athlete. And I have to say that I was a little bit frustrated when I watch him dash out of the cab of his truck carrying three cases of beer with two bags of grocery on top of it and parking in one of the few accessible spaces in part of this one apartment complex. Now, he has this 20 legitimately issued for the benefit of grandmother and it had to be frustrate to go people who needed that space. >> JACQUIE: Right. Here is something a little similar but with a different twist. I was told by the Colorado department of motor vehicles that as long as a person has a handicapped placard, they can use it on any vehicle. I recently saw a semi-tractor parked in a handicapped space. Wouldn't that be abuse? As an extruckdriver I think that if you can get in and out of a cab, you don't need a handicapped placard. I was told it didn't matter if the person was in a commercial vehicle as long as they had that placard. Do you think that should be changed? >> AARON: Well, it would be interesting to see a rig parked in a small space, but if you -- I actually think -- I don't want to discourage people with disabilities from engaging in the kind of fields of business where they might have to have a commercially licensed vehicle. In fact, I have an acquaintance of mine who has a disability who works on cars who has a car transporter and I'm sure he uses his hangtag at times when appropriate. And I wouldn't want to discourage that. >> JACQUIE: Okay, in one is from California. Is a parking structure a building or facility that is required to have an elevator, and does the accessible path within a parking structure need to be 48-inches wide in front of the parking space? Sorry, that was one E-mail, but it's actually two questions. So if you want to separate those out. I guess the first one is the parking structure a building that's required to have an elevator? >> AARON: You can create a parking structure that's compliant 21 with the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines that doesn't need an elevator because you cluster accessible parking, let's say, on the ground floor. So that's not necessarily the case. The accessible route -- the accessible route in most circumstances needs to be 36-inches unless it's varied by state law and that may be the case here. If they have a question about that, they can send us another question and I'll follow up on it. >> JACQUIE: All right. Here is the first apartment one as you anticipated there are several. An apartment tenant with a disability requests an accessible parking space assigned to their apartment only. Although the tenant has a physical disability, the tenant does not have a vehicle. The tenant wants the assigned accessible parking space for visitors, friends, family who come to visit because of her disability and her health which is deteriorating. Some of the visitors also have disabilities, can you clarify how to best address this scenario? >> AARON: You know, I can appreciate, let's say, a management being hesitant about this because -- well, to be honest, because people abuse this kind of request all the time. I think three years ago I used the phrase that parking frustrated so many people because as Americans we are jealous Parkers and never more so than in apartment settings where parking is at a premium and there tends to be issues with bringing guests over. Depending on how the parking is -- depending on how the parking is set up and how much parking there is, this might be a reasonable request. Again, if this is the only way that she can truly live there, if this is 22 truly so much a of an aid to her, that this -- that this is something that she does need, then it's potentially a reasonable request. And again, that would be something that she would have to negotiate and convince the management of. Because again they're going to have a great deal of hesitancy. There is, again, in the general provisions of the Fair Housing Act this is something that's anticipated in a somewhat recent joint statement between the Department of Justice and housing and urban development who regulate the Fair Housing Act. They further talk about providing assigned and accessible spaces the tenants as a reasonable accommodation or a reasonable modification of policy you know, where necessary. This one is a little more difficult again because she doesn't have a vehicle. I think you'd have to look at how much she's actually going to use it. >> JACQUIE: Right. This is another one from California. We actually have several along this line that this is the one I'm going to read. What can we do to get cities and counties to comply with the handicapped parking regs and what can we do to get them to force businesses to comply? >> AARON: That's interesting. Well, I mean, you can try to advocate in good faith with counties and cities. Depending on what you're talking about -- are they actually enforcing it in the street parking and the parking that they operate? I'm going to say for the most part, compared to private parking providers, counties and cities do a better job 23 of installing and maintaining a somewhat accessible spaces, maybe not totally compliant, but when you go to a county lot, let's say in a downtown area, there is going to tend to be accessible parking spaces. You can go cheek and goel with that one and there will be a lot right next to it that's operated by a private provider and they won't have a single parking space thees ee properly designated. So the ADA has done a great deal of good I think making county and city governments comply at least with that basic issue. But enforcing, let's say, parking in those facilities is something else entirely. You have to bring it to their attention. And I'm going to encourage this: Participation in local government, particularly county government, by the public is so limited that they are generally impressed when you can get just a few people who are reasonable and making well researched requests. Do you this enough times and you're going to find that they are going to tend to listen. In addition, this is something -- this is the kind of public interest thing that really does interest the press. That is you know I think a fairly powerful tool of advocacy that if used properly can be a win-win for the disability advocates and for a city or county. In addition, you can do like I'm going to do, and I'm going to on behalf of certain clients sue the offenders for failing to provide and enforce parking. And that's never the most ideal option, but it's one that you have to go to and it's one that the ADA actually gives you an option that the ADA gives you. >> JACQUIE: Right. Okay -- 24 >> AARON: I'm coming to get some of you. I can't do it all. >> JACQUIE: What are the measuring points for the striping? Is it center to center? Inside edge to inside edge or something else? >> AARON: Let me put it this way: Under the federal accessibility guidelines there is no requirement for striping. It's required that it be distinct. Striping is the way that most people solve it, but it's actually been done by -- I've seen colored aggregate material that's lighter in color than the paving and doing it that way. You may have, again, a state law or a local building code that requires you to do it a particular way. And I just -- without knowing where you're at, I can't answer that question. >> JACQUIE: Okay. Is the accessible route from the access aisle serving an accessible parking space permitted to travel behind parked vehicles? >> AARON: Ideally, it's not supposed to. Under certain circumstances, there is no other way for that to happen. So if it's technically infeasible for it to go any other way, then it technically can. But if you're doing it just because you're lazy or a poor designer, then you may still get gigged on that. >> JACQUIE: Is the 96-inch minimum requirement for ADA spaces required in existing properties? Our spaces are 86-inches wide. When we re-striped, do the new stripes need to be moved in order to provide 96-inch spaces? >> AARON: When you re-stripe or when you resurface that forces a re-stripe to the extent technically feasible, you need to do everything to 25 comply with the new construction standards in the ADAAG. That means that you may not be getting a perfect cross slope, but you can repaint. So you may need to reconfigure your spaces. Now, that may actually lessen the amount of spaces that you have in that lot, so that may actually trigger a change in the amount of accessible spaces you need. But you do need to properly configure the space if you're repainting. >> JACQUIE: Okay. Suppose my retail business has a 90 space parking lot with the four required accessible parking places, but they are always used by employees with disabilities leaving none for public use. Do I have to provide additional accessible parking? >> AARON: That's kind of interesting. Let's kind of flip that on its side. What if you had employees with disabilities that were trying to park and couldn't because the public was there? Would you need to provide that parking for them as a reasonable accommodation of employment. The ADAAG itself is not going to strictly require it, but if you're running into this as a problem and you're aware of it, then it's a fairly easy fix. You probably either need to designate some fairly close in accessible employee parking, come up with some compromise with those employees who are parking there. You probably want to ensure that the employees who are parking there are legitimately using their hangtags and to the extent that they are employees, you can make that an inquiry. Well, you can't be confrontational about it, because you have issues under Title I, but you want to make sure they are being accommodated. >> JACQUIE: Since churches are exempt from the provisions of the 26 ADA, how can the designated handicapped spaces that one sees in church parking lots be enforced? >> AARON: Well, churches are exempt from the ADA. They are not exempt from building codes typically. So you want to see whether or not they are impacted by that. New construction and church facilities in Texas is governed under the Texas Architectural Barriers Act and we get all over church building and new construction and alterations except for the actual place of worship. In addition, if a church facility leases out its -- leases out its site and facilities for let's say other activities such as community fairs, sporting events, other nonreligious activities, then they actually become vulnerable under Title III of the ADA. So that may be a lever that you can use with the church to ensure that they properly configure them. I'm going to say churches tend to do a pretty good job of trying to be as accessible as possible and I'd say most of them actually tend to have more spaces than required because to be honest your average group of parishioners the end to be older than your average group of citizens. >> JACQUIE: That's been my experience as well. What about this -- this is another apartment question: At an older apartment complex that has no accessible parking spaces, even though there are units that are designated for elderly and disabled, what can be done to persuade them that they must provide accessible parking spaces and not fall back on the grandfather excuse due to the age of the complex? >> AARON: Well, again, the fair housing accessibility guidelines do not apply to privately operated multifamily dwellings, but the general 27 provisions do apply and a request that they install some accessible parking would be a reasonable request under those general provisions. And again this is reinforced by a recent joint statement from HUD and the Department of Justice that I believe we posted in the materials on the website for this webcast. But you mentioned you invoked the fact that there were set asides, that there were designated apartments for elderly and disabled folks, which leads me to believe that this is either a HUD operated or a local housing authority operated facility, in which case they have an increased obligation to provide that. If that is the case, then you need to make a complaint with your local housing authority if onsite management is unwilling to do this and potentially file a fair housing complaint. But again, my guess is that we're talking about a locally ran public housing project. It may be a privately operated one that receives supplements. Let's say that it's a private facility that accepts Section 8 vouchers, but it doesn't sound like that's what it is, but that may actually be the case, and even -- even under that program, even under the voucher program there is something called the housing quality standards or the HQS and again that addresses the rights of people with disabilities. I'm going to say I'm not sure -- I know parking is implicated in the HQS, but I just can't recall that chapter off my head. So that will be a question to follow up. Whoever sent that question in, try to give me more facts about the facility and I'll get back to you personally, okay? >> JACQUIE: Okay. This is from a university parking and transportation assistant director. Is there an ADA requirement or rule of 28 thumb that addresses the number of accessible parking spaces you should have for a special event? For example, a football game where you have 30,000 attendees or a basketball game where you have 12,000 attendees? >> AARON: Well, you probably want to plan for that. You probably want to plan, you know, to how you're going to modify parking, but typically those events are served by your existing parking. The difficulty happens on gameday is that you have all sorts of things like tailgating. You have team buses. You have the VIP's who are getting their hands kissed, those big donors coming in to the event, and all too often they want to prioritize parking for the team buses, for the boosters and for the big donors. And this is going to tend to be parking that is closest in and will probably engage a lot of disabled designated parking, at least that's been my experience. Knowing that to be the case, you need to try to not do that or if you are going to do that, then you need to provide alternative close in parking. There is nothing wrong with designating temporary accessible parking so long as it meets the needs and basically complies with the law. But you don't -- you don't cover up all your accessible parking in a particular lot with a team bus or a bunch of boosters and expect not to win a complaint. My guess is that's what you are getting at. If you're asking a different question, have a follow-up question sent to us. >> JACQUIE: What's the requirements for van accessible parking in a public parking lot versus just a necessary accessible space? Since van accessible for people with a lift require more space, how is that handle in the. 29 >> AARON: It's just a different configuration. Again, the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines gives you a required minimal number of accessible spaces and a required minimal number of van accessible spaces when you get over a certain amount of spaces. And the only difference between a traditional accessible space -- a regular accessible space and a van accessible space is that the van accessible space access aisle is far wider than the sign that designates the space needs to indicate that it's a van accessible space either on the sign itself or on an additional sign attached below. >> JACQUIE: Okay, here is a quick and easy one. Could you please repeat the website for sending information on illegal accessible parking? >> AARON: Again, this is a private website operated by a woman named Maureen Birdsall. And it's handicappedfraud.org. Handicappedfraud.org. Now, I've look at this site and I've seen people who are just frustrated and they enter in like a little bit of information but that's not the least bit helpful. She and some of her co-workers spent months building this -- I guess would you call reporting engine and you have an opportunity -- again, you need to take down the serial number of the hangtag if you can see it and the plate number and provide a description as to what you saw. And if you have an opportunity to up load a photo, to do so, too. There is even a video of somebody doing this on a site that kind of shows you how to do it, but again -- and she encourages you to never confront anybody. Don't make yourself a target. People are jealous Parkers and you don't need to get hurt trying to do a good thing. 30 >> JACQUIE: Right. Are parking garages required to have van accessible spaces if the clearance into the garage is six foot eight inches and is, therefore, lower than the 98-inches required for van accessible vertical clearance? >> AARON: You're probably talking about a garage that was built before the requirements and that presents a problem. There is -- there are clearance issues in new construction, but in existing construction, there is really nothing you can do if the clearance is not there. In that set of circumstances, if you need to provide -- if the site owner or operator or manager needs to provide van accessible parking, then they probably need to try to provide additional van accessible parking outside the parking garage and try to make that as similarly situated in terms of how close it is and what amenities are offered as the other spaces are. There really isn't -- you know, the ADA is not going to require that you stop using older facilities. And there plenty of them that were built before the accessible guidelines were enforceable that just won't meet the needs of those people with lift equipped vans, often with raised roofs. So, again, if that's an issue and you know you're out -- you're not providing the necessary van accessible parking because of that, the site operator -- the people who operate that facility or site may want to consider providing an additional van accessible space in let's say an adjacent surface lot. >> JACQUIE: Okay, I want to give you an opportunity to address something broadly because we're getting so many questions that are on this particular topic. 31 A lot of questions that say how many spaces do we have to have for this kind of lot or how many spaces in relation to this many total spaces? And I know that it would be ridiculous to actually go through all of these different scenarios and have you look it up sort of even though you probably know most of them, but can you tell them where in the materials that are on the website already they can find this list of how many, what's the percentages or how many spaces for how many regular spaces? >> AARON: Well, the best thing that I've shown you -- or that I've added to this list is something called the bulletin No. 6 on parking. This is titled -- I think the link is called Access Board's parking technical bulletin. And it leads you to a document created by the United States Access Board. Again, that federal agency that actually writes these guidelines, and it details just step by step in a question and answer format what is accessible parking, how is the minimal number of accessible spaces determined and answers those questions about garages, alterations, and special occupancies, et ceteras. So that would be where you would find that information. If you want even more specific information, then up probably want to go to the Access Board's website directly. >> JACQUIE: Okay. >> AARON: And, again, that's just access-board.gov. And they have the full set of accessibility guidelines on there, but I want to assure you that the vast majority of people only really need this bulletin. Now, again, I encourage you as more and more states have got in their local accessibility provisions or parts of their local building code or 32 their accessible architectural barriers act law certified, you may have a state law issue that changes parking slightly. You may also have additional law -- for example, Arkansas and other states I'm sure require a particular type and color and size of sign that's an industry standard, but again, it's a particular type and color for a compliant space. Now, that's not an ADA or accessibility guideline concern, but it does modify how you would properly configure a spot. So again when you're complying with the ADA, you may still have that extra step because your state or your locality may have particular other issues. A big one is this, the international symbol of accessibility, the little wheelchair diagram that is typically in the space itself, designating the space, that's not required under the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines. Most people think it is. >> JACQUIE: You're talking about the painted -- >> AARON: Yeah, the painted designated ISA in the middle of the space, but in a lot of local code it's required. I think it's good to have there because it's a pretty obvious in your face indication that this is an accessible designated space even more so -- >> JACQUIE: I wanted to make sure we're making the distinction between signage is required. >> AARON: Signage is required, but that drawing in the middle of the space, that silhouette of a person in the wheelchair called the ISA or the international symbol of accessibility isn't required under the federal law but is often required understate law or local code. >> JACQUIE: Right. 33 >> AARON: So I'm just encourage you to look at the federal issue, but you may have a local concern as well. >> JACQUIE: I also want to just advise questioners that we're getting a lot of questions about what are the requirements for getting a hangtag and things like that and those are -- I'm sorry, I'll let you go ahead and answer that, Aaron. >> AARON: Well, again, there is a generality I can say. Either somebody as an impairment that limits thee mobility, but the requirement is going to vary state to state. Ideally for -- ideally these are tags not to be issued for long, long periods of time. Texas has one of the longest ones. I think you can get a tag for several years without having to revisit the issue. For somebody with an injury, a legitimate injury, let's say a massive lier fractured leg, they are only going to get one insured for the length of their prognosis plus a length or two for their recovery, ideally, not a permanently issued one. That's going to vary state to state, folks. >> JACQUIE: That was the main thing I wanted to get out there. Because this is some from one who actually runs parking lots, I want to make sure we get this: The question is did I understand correctly that privately owned parking lots that are available for public parking are not required to provide accessible spaces? >> AARON: You absolutely misinterpreted that. I'm going to -- what I'm going to say is I think what you heard was this: That public parking spaces, particularly in large urban areas, those that are operated by counties and cities tend to actually have accessible parking spaces. 34 The private lots often do not or don't have enough or don't have properly configured ones. That's not -- they are in violation of the law because of that. And vulnerable for lawsuits. So, yes, they do have to and so you did misinterpret. >> JACQUIE: An apartment community is being constructed next to the parking garage that my cooperates. At this time there is no agreement with the builders or with any tenants or perspective tenants of the apartment building. Is my question required to move accessible spaces closer to an air bridge that is being erected between the two buildings? >> AARON: Hmmm... without an agreement, why is the air bridge being built? I assume there is an agreement. I can't answer that. I'd be curious why someone would spend dozens of thousands of dollars without some sort of formal agreement. >> JACQUIE: Right. Maybe they can send in more. >> AARON: If you've got more facts, please send those. We can't be running out of questions? >> JACQUIE: We're not, but every one I'm opening is can you to us of the number of spaces required. >> AARON: If you've got a question -- while you look up the next question -- >> JACQUIE: Let's say a tire store is open from 8 to 5 and the parking lot is a private lot that has an accessible space, but after hours the manager parks his own truck in the space due to the fact that it is monitored by a camera and he has received two tickets from local law enforcement. And the question then is, is that right? 35 >> AARON: Interesting. Are the who they are spaces open to the public or do they shut it down at night? That would be my question. >> JACQUIE: It must shut down -- well... >> AARON: He's parking it there because it's a safety issue and I've seen this and they monitor the space. >> JACQUIE: The store is closed after 5 and it's a parking lot for this store. So they don't -- there is no need to park there after 5. >> AARON: Well except that apparently the law enforcement is enforcing it so somebody is parking there or they are perceiving that they are. And the quickest way to solve this is to change the angle of his camera and move his truck over because I'm going to say that's probably going to keep happening to him. If your lot is closed off to the public after your business is closed, then that would be something else entirely; but my guess is you don't have a fence around your property and you're not shutting it down. So it's ostensibly open to the public. And so that will probably keep happening to you. >> JACQUIE: Please comment on some guidelines or suggestions for determining the number of temporary accessible parking spaces for events and cautions that are related to the location of the temporary accessible parking spaces? >> AARON: Well, there is actually some pretty good guidance on temporary events from the Department of Justice and I want to say it's a called a technical assistance bulletin on temporary events. I'm not sure if that's exactly the title, but that's close. The gist of what they are 36 saying is you need to provide essentially the same amount of parking you would in any other circumstance. So if you're reconfiguring how you're e using spaces and let's say you're utilizing some let's say open field parking, then you're going to want to provide as good as possible accessible parking. Let's say you are having a big fair event and you are clear-cutting a field, bush hogging a field for example, you're bringing in some Chads to provide a temporary roadway, you probably want to consider if this is a semi-regular event, pouring a pad to provide truly accessible parking or doing your best to provide a stable accessible parking and you need to properly configure it. You need to sign it. Even if it's temporary signs and you need to provide for designated access aisles, et cetera. If you can. And again it needs to reflect the percentage or the proportion of parking that any other parking would be -- that any other lot would be required to. And you want to make it as close to -- you know, as close to those centers of activities and the entrance into whatever facility or site that you're using. If it's a fair ground, as close as possible to the main drag entrance. As close as possible -- if there is entrances, you want to disperse them that reflect what you would in any other circumstances. >> JACQUIE: Okay, the next two have to do with university campus parking. >> AARON: Man -- and I'm going stay these are going to be the worst. >> JACQUIE: On a university campus with many parking lots, should the ADA guidelines for handicapped parking spaces, the number of 37 them, be based on the number of spaces in each lot or on the total number of spaces on campus? We currently cluster handicapped to the interior of the campus where there is more demand rather than perimeter parking lots. >> AARON: And that's a huge concern. The problem is in new construction when you're building new lots that are serving -- that are serving the entire campus, you are still held to the obligation of new construction, but you're probably right at least from a programmatic perspective, particularly if you're a state university or a local junior college to ensure that providing access to the programs and services which makes sense to cluster the parking closer to the interior. I don't have a good answer for you. Because if it's new construction -- if you're building a new lot, you still need to put that proper percentage of spaces in and it even gets more complicated when you're serving outlying lots with shuttle buses because that increases your obligation to provide accessible shuttle provisions. So I'm going to say universities have a bigger problem with this because they tend to start out small, you know, with a smaller cluster of buildings and then expand across campus. Parking is always at a premium. Parking is expensive at universities. And again people are very jealous Parkers. So my best answer is when you build a new lot, put in the proper amount of spaces. When you re-stripe existing lots, put in the proper amount of spaces, but keep on clustering additional spaces towards the interior where the demand is. I don't have a perfect answer for you, but in most cases, you know, if you do that, then you're going to secure far fewer complaints about parking. 38 >> JACQUIE: Okay, this is from a university that's in Texas. In Texas who has the authority to ask a driver to produce identification that matches the placard? >> AARON: Cops, law enforcement, police officers. >> JACQUIE: Actually I get this question a lot and it's usually from parking people at big events like at stadiums or businesses who want to know can they ask. And this is obviously now a university who wants to know can their people ask. So really it's only police officers that can ask. >> AARON: Well, university parking is different issues because in most circumstances we're not talking about parking generally open to the public. They probably have public and visitor lots, but my guess is the question you're asking about students. Students are licensed to park there. They typically have to pay, and what I've seen universities do is issue -- because you're issuing a particular permit, you can ask -- you can ask a student who wants a parking permit to establish that they need an accessible parking permit. The difficulty is if somebody has got a legitimately issued hangtag and they park in accessible visitor parking and they may very well be a student, what do you do? >> JACQUIE: Right. >> AARON: And I guess university law enforcement and security are going to have to deal with that. And the short answer is -- my guess is if it's a legitimately issued hangtag, they have the right to park there. >> JACQUIE: Okay. And so in a big facility like, say, at a big 39 stadium and you have just stadium parking people that are letting people in to designated spots, accessible spots, can they say I need to see your I.D. to see if it matches your hangtag? >> AARON: You know, I guess you could. I don't know how many people are going to volunteer that to any Joe Blow in a yellow jacket or event T-shirt. And what are you going to do if they refuse? Are you going to deny them access? And again you might very well do that. So it's difficult to encourage people to take that hard of a line, but I would understand if they did. But what's the motivation behind it? Is it because you're aware that there is widespread fraud? And what is your goal about fixing it only during events? >> JACQUIE: Probably it is that they get -- they have a correct number of accessible spaces and yet they have too many drivers for the number of spaces that they have. >> AARON: In that set of circumstances, I encourage people -- if you ensure that you have the proper amount of spaces, do what you can to discourage people improperly using them and you kind of CYA. We can't count on people being -- on all people being good. There are people who fake disabilities to jump in front of the line at Disney World. I mean, as evil as that is, at the world's friendliest place to be that unfriendly. >> JACQUIE: And I think you answered this one before, but we've gotten a couple more that are saying essentially the same thing that have come in since. Let me just make sure we've covered this. Is there any burden -- and this is again at a university -- to provide additional accessible parking 40 for large occasional events, even though there are enough accessible spaces for the adjacent size parking lots? >> AARON: It depends. Is the way you're using the event, you know, truly changing -- you know, changing where the focus is? And I say this: You may have a big basketball hall that is served by a lot. That lot also serves, let's say, the education building and the administration building. And so the accessible parking is going to tend to be clustered towards exits off that parking lot aimed at the administration and the education building. But when you -- that field house when you're having a basketball game is going to be the focus. So what do you do? I would encourage you to, you know, establish accessible parking closer to that entrance because this is a temporary event, but if you've got the proper amount of spaces, you know, in that lot and they are reasonably disbursed on how it's going to be used on average, then you're probably following the law. Unless the nature of the event is eliminating some of those accessible spaces because of how you're using that lot, you're probably complying with the law. The difficulty with universities and their situation, this highly politicized atmosphere around sporting events and donations are that you have to do more than satisfy the law. You've got to satisfy well to do alumni, so you may want to provide additional accessible parking. >> JACQUIE: Okay, this is I guess in line with an earlier question. How do we know where to measure to see if a space is 96-inches wide? Do we measure from the middle of the stripe or differently colored lines or the other way around? Even though you mentioned earlier of course 41 the striping is not required, but if its there, do they use that as a way to measure a 96-inch wide space? >> AARON: Are you talking about the crosshatching in the access aisle? When you're measuring the space it's the entirety of the space. So you can actually have paint within the line of the space. And I think that's going to answer most of that question. Most people -- however, there is nothing prohibiting you from making the space slightly larger. You know, there is nothing wrong with that, and if you've got a few inches to play with, you might not want to cut that fine of a line because if you're trying do that every time, you're going to tend to fall short. So it's always better to be a little more generous. >> JACQUIE: This person is really complaining that in store parking lots, their local police say that they can't patrol because the store parking is a private lot and so they will not go in to ticket people who are illegally parked in accessible spaces. >> AARON: Well, shoot somebody in that lot and see how private it is. >> JACQUIE: Please do not take that advice from him. >> AARON: I'm not encouraging you to shoot somebody. In fact I'm absolutely not. It's a private space that's open to the public. The police can choose to enforce the law on it and in fact if there was a felony in progress, they are going to be forced to enter into the property. They can voluntarily choose to enforce a misdemeanor that's committed on the property. They will undoubtedly enter the property if somebody -- if 42 somebody edge gauges in petty theft in shoplifting, another misdemeanor and they'll choose to enforce it. It's just that cops aren't that interested in enforcing parking on private lots. And to be honest, even on-street parking, that's why they often create meter patrols because it's not that sexy of an issue for law enforcement and the key for advocates is to make them understand it is a vital issue and it can be a potential income generator. I mean, hate to say it, but a lot of cities live and die on their parking tickets and their speeding tickets in terms of their budget. So you if it's an important issue to you as an advocate, make it important to the police. >> JACQUIE: All right, in a lot with 20 spaces, one van accessible space is required for the lot to be compliant. >> AARON: Oh, I'm glad this question came up. >> JACQUIE: But to promote a friendly environment for the disabled community, and I should mention I guess that this is a university who is asking this question, to promote a friendly environment for the disabled community, the lot owner places disabled parking only signs in every remaining space. There are not access aisles for those spaces. The remaining spaces are also out of spec due to slope. Is the parking lot legal with the one compliant space? >> AARON: Well, I mean, the only thing they are required to have is the one van compliant space. If it complies, that's fine. If they do anything else, anything that they do additionally is probably okay, too. >> JACQUIE: Even though they don't really meet the requirements in terms of slope or access aisle? 43 >> AARON: As long as that's not parking they are using to offset nonaccessible parking or the lack of accessible parking in other lots. I mean, there is nothing wrong with designating parking. For example, a lot of folks let's say in front of pharmacies you've seen this, expectant mother parking. You know, that's not required under the law and there is very little that they do to make those spots truly accessible, but it's certainly allowable. I wouldn't necessarily -- you know, I might have some hesitation about that because it might create an expectation that it is accessible and it's not. >> JACQUIE: Right. >> AARON: So, you know, you might create a different sign. >> JACQUIE: Yes, I've seen a lot of those actually. >> AARON: Courtesy parking for the elderly. Courtesy parking for -- this is courtesy parking. And you might try to route people there directly, but I would have some concern with improperly configured spaces being signed. >> JACQUIE: I agree with that. >> AARON: And this is the lawyer in both of us. I wouldn't want somebody -- I wouldn't want somebody relying on that, unshipping their wheelchair and getting hurt exiting their vehicle. >> JACQUIE: Right. Okay, we have two minutes left and we have one question left. So that worked out pretty well. >> AARON: Very cool. >> JACQUIE: Here in the state of New Hampshire we are having a 44 difficult time keeping disabled drivers from parking in the access aisle. The striped area next to the handicapped parking space. They mistakenly believe owning a plate or a placard allows them to park or overlap anywhere within the disabled parking space often parking in the access aisle. This blocks interested drivers like myself who use wheelchairs and use a ramp to reenter their cars. How do you address this situation in Texas or any other state? >> AARON: That's an interesting issue. Because it's an allowable alternative to actually make the space extend into the access aisle. But if that's blocking other accessible -- if that's blocking other people -- I guess -- I would need to have a few more facts because it sounds like you're having people park in the access aisle only rather than parking in the adjacent space and overlapping. >> JACQUIE: That's what it sounds like from the question, but I read the whole thing so I don't have more info on it. >> AARON: That's a difficult question to ask. If it's somebody improperly parking in the access aisle, write them a ticket. If it's somebody who is overlapping into the access aisle, it's probably allowed. Again, as an alternative design, it's allowable under the ADA. I think they call it a Florida space, I could be wrong about that, but the Access Board has anticipated incorporating really large spaces rather than an access aisle which allows a little more versatility in how someone parks. Particularly if they are dropping a lift. And as long as it's clearly designated so that would suggests you could park anywhere, but I'm going to encourage that questioner to send in more specific facts and even though 45 this webcast is coming to its conclusion, I'll personally answer it via E-mail. >> JACQUIE: Okay, great, Aaron. Thank you so much, Aaron. I hope everybody that's listening learned a lot today. We certainly had a lot of listeners and a lot of great questions which we always appreciate. Also please note that this webcast will be archived on ILRU's website which you can find by visiting ilru.org. I would like to acknowledge the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research, NIDRR, who funds your host, the Southwest ADA Center for today's program. I would also like to thank the in-house staff here at ILRU because without their efforts this webcast would not be possible. They include Marj Gordon, Sharon Finney, Dawn Heinsohn, Vinh Nguyen, Maria Del Bosque as well as the technical expertise provided by Rob Dickehuth and our amazing realtime captioner Marie Bryant. For a list of upcoming webcasts please visit ilru.org. Have a dazzling day.